Poker Update and Baseball Debate iv...

Despite all the No limit Texas Hold'em games going on on the coast, this is another part of a "Baseball will remain America's Iconic sport" debate. You know you are headed for trouble when the very thing you are debating is nebulous itself. Easier to learn poker and all it's nuances than to settle this question? Mabye.

Him: You've know me for almost 20 years. Have I ever not cared about baseball during that time? Even during the strike, I wanted to see baseball. And if I remember correctly, I recall you being a huge Phillies fan in 93.

So what changed? Is it because you are now in an area that doesn't embrace baseball as much? Baseball is still alive and well on the west coast, the east coast, the Midwest, all places where teams are located. If there was a team in New Orleans, would you be more interested in baseball? If you want to watch a meaningless NHL, NBA, MLS game, that is fine.

That is your prerogative. All I know is tonight, I will be watching the World Series, where the drama of two great pitchers are throwing, one to win a World Championship, and the other to save the season for his team. Neither sport is going away, but that wasn't the original argument, which you so nicely deviated from. Baseball is still, and will continue to be a more iconic game, and because of that, will continue to be America's sport.

Me: Baseball's attendance has gone up with new stadiums, cheaper tickets, and the comparative value for a family outing compared to the other big sports. Like all of baseball's ill-advised quick fixes to problems bigger than the sport, they will... come back to bite them in the ass. Stadiums stop being new, they'll squeeze their cheap seats for more money, and concessions will just become too high for families to afford even baseball.

I've watched a no-hitter live at the Vet. Until it was the 8th inning it was the most boring live sporting event I ever watched. Even then, even as a kid, I realized watching "history" live was sometimes simply a matter of being there when an anomaly in statistics occurs. Tommy Greene didn't strike out 27 batters he got 27 batters out. Some made contact except all their drives happened to be caught or fielded fastly. Really, little to no difference between any other game, except the offense didn't connect.

I realize there are no hitters and dominating no hitters but the "record" books don't differientiate. That's a flaw not a plus, like you try to make it seem. The sport is beholden to statistics and as a result the savvy fan will realize the "records" are either enhanced outliers or normal statistical variance. The debates you treasure are meaningless because even in a 162 game season the sample size is relatively low considering what you are trying to measure. Careers yes. Seasons or games no.

I like the Phillies in late September and early October. My dislike for the sport now is the same as it was a kid in the 80s, a young adult in the 90s, and a cynic in the early 2000s. It has nothing to do with where I live.

Btw, please continue with your three for one icons to stars claim... that's one point you'lll have to concede.

SO far you've given me two. I'll help you out and give you Maddox, Glavine, Ripken, Jeter, Smoltz, and Schilling. That will give you three to one for Arod, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa. Now give me three for Bonds, for ManRam, for Gary Sheffield, for Jason (and Jeremy) Giambi, for Canseco, for Sheffield, for Santiago, for Dykstra, Brian roberts, for Andy Petit, Chuck Knobloch, David Justice, Mo Vaughn, Miguel Tejad, Kevin Brown, Eric Gange, Wally Joyner, Palmiero, Ken Caminiti, Rick Ankiel, Troy Claus, Jose Guillen, Matt Williams, Juan Gonzalez, Ivan Rodriguez, Albert Belle, Brian Roberts, Magglio Ordonez, Mike Piazza, David Ortiz... Yeah. have fun with that one.

I'll be waiting... for your three for one. Course your list will invariably contain some lucky guys who just didn't get caught or who baseball refused to give up (hint... who do you think introduced Brady Anderson to the stuff).
Him: The fact is more people haven't taken them than have. You listed 3 (possibly 5) players who could be considered icons. You listed 9 (up to 11) stars, and the rest are nice players.

If you are asking me to list 60 players (I'll go from star...s to icons to Hall of Famers) in that era who I believe haven't done PEDs, I can easily do that: Pedroia, Youkilis, Tony Gwynn, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, Miguel Cabrera, Frank Thomas, Matt Holliday, Roy Halladay, Mariano Rivera, Bernie Williams, Todd Helton, Andre Dawson, Rickey Henderson, Wade Boggs, Will Clark, Don Mattingly, Paul Molitor, Mark Teixiera, David Eckstien (to counteract the Chuck Knoblauch argument), Paul Konerko, Jorge Posada, Nomar Garciaparra, Carl Everett, Bobby Abreu, Alfonso Sorianno, Scott Rolen, JD Drew, Ichiro, Hideki Matsui, Johnny Damon, Vlad Guerrero, Carl Crawford, Vernon Wells, Randy Johnson, Johan Santana, David Wells, Roy Oswalt, Brad Lidge, John Olerud, Mike Greenwell, Barry Larkin, Ozzie Smith, Kirby Puckett, Roberto Alomar, Jim Edmonds, Chipper Jones, Jermaine Dye, Andruw Jones, Carlos Delgado, Garrett Anderson, Jason Varitek, Mike Lowell, Michael Young, Beckett, Lowe, Billy Wagner, Trevor Hoffman, Sabbathia.

I think that should be your 3 for 1 (which I never claimed). Baseball, like football, is tainted by a few players. Not every football player goes out and sexually assaults a 20 year old college student in the bathroom of a bar. Not every football player takes pictures of himself and sexts it to a reporter. You don't hear about the good stories in sports, just the negative.


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