Daniel Negreanu Angle Shooting Poker Player?
Watch this video:
http://www.cardplayer.com/cptv/channels/13-other-poker-videos/poker-videos/3964-2010-pokerstars-caribbean-adventure-negreanu-calls-floor
Little bit of the debate over his actions here:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/dn-shoots-angle-pca-679710/
Daniel's thoughts followed by my thoughts:
Decidedly a gray area for me. The part where DN says "You have A5" it feels like he wants the guy to say yes, show it and then DN can act. If he's right the guy might sheepishly pull his bet back and DN doesn't have to make a call. Seems like some people on the thread miss this entirely. The whole pretext (I guess being the angleshoot) is that DN asserts he definitely saw his hand... but he didn't. I will have to scan the poker blogs to see what folks think about this.
People lie in poker all the time, but it's kind of frowned upon to lie about the game.
Though, as this type of information ferreting is so natural to DN he probably didn't, and doesn't see the difference. To him, it's as legitimate as if the guy didn't expose his cards and DN was trying to get a read on him and fired some possibilities at him for a reaction. Only problem is at this point he's suggesting he definitely knows what the guy has. Only after the reaction of the other players at the table... he backs off of it and says it could be other cards (though I'm not saying those reactions were the cause of him backing off of it but he did glean infomation by asserting he knew exactly what the hand was).
Certainly calling the floor isn't an angle shoot (as some suggested). Steering an inexperienced floorman and talking over an inexperienced (sounded like not too great of an English speaker too) opponent is less of a transgression as it's not Daniel's fault either person was who they were. He's definitely exploiting the situation to his advantage in two spots... there's not question about that. One aspect is kind of borderline the other less so.
Makes me question my own play once. We were at the river and I hadn't called a guys bet yet, I think somebody folded and he thought the hand was over, forgetting about me and showed his mediocre hand (basically a bluff). I believe I only saw one card and like Daniel was a little unsure of the other as the dealer had acted to stop the face up muck trying to block his cards saying action was on me. I couldn't beat what I thought was only a mediocre hand as I missed, but I hadn't insta-folded as I was contemplating if I could raise him, as I thought he might fold and he seemed weak--then he kind of showed his cards.
When he tried to cover his cards, I laughed saying "I saw your hand," and fired out a raise. He mucked.. disgusted. Angle shot... or not on my part? I definitely exploited the situation, and like Daniel misrepresented what I saw, but if I shot an angle it was kind of instinctual and reactive because it just better armed me to bluff (does, that make me at heart a bad person? ugh.. if shot an angle I did it instinctively... like it's my nature lol). Course I didn't truly see his hand, but I saw enough that I thought I could follow through on my bluff and he'd have to fold.
www.gulfcoastpoker.net
http://www.cardplayer.com/cptv/channels/13-other-poker-videos/poker-videos/3964-2010-pokerstars-caribbean-adventure-negreanu-calls-floor
Little bit of the debate over his actions here:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/dn-shoots-angle-pca-679710/
Daniel's thoughts followed by my thoughts:
He doesn't see me re-raise and flips his hand face up. I see the Ace of diamondsWhat I find a little... um... sketchy for lack of a better word... is implying he saw both cards but he only saw one (and a half--I guess). Later (watch the video) he calls the floor over and despite backing off this false pretext to the table he says it again and then backs out of it again (with far less vehemence or vigor), but then keeps repeating assuredly "I saw his hand" and almost as aside he's cops to being not so sure of the other card. Well, he didn't see his hand, he saw part of it.
as clear as day, and the other card looked to be a two across spade, meaning it
was the 4s or the 5s. Now he wants to raise me 15,000 more and I say,"Why
are you raising me! I saw your hand, lol." I wasn't exactly sure what his
second card was, but I obviously assumed if he was raising me it couldn't be
the 4s and had to be the 5s or the 10s. The two guys on my left saw his hand
much more clearly and knew exactly what he had.
Decidedly a gray area for me. The part where DN says "You have A5" it feels like he wants the guy to say yes, show it and then DN can act. If he's right the guy might sheepishly pull his bet back and DN doesn't have to make a call. Seems like some people on the thread miss this entirely. The whole pretext (I guess being the angleshoot) is that DN asserts he definitely saw his hand... but he didn't. I will have to scan the poker blogs to see what folks think about this.
People lie in poker all the time, but it's kind of frowned upon to lie about the game.
Though, as this type of information ferreting is so natural to DN he probably didn't, and doesn't see the difference. To him, it's as legitimate as if the guy didn't expose his cards and DN was trying to get a read on him and fired some possibilities at him for a reaction. Only problem is at this point he's suggesting he definitely knows what the guy has. Only after the reaction of the other players at the table... he backs off of it and says it could be other cards (though I'm not saying those reactions were the cause of him backing off of it but he did glean infomation by asserting he knew exactly what the hand was).
Certainly calling the floor isn't an angle shoot (as some suggested). Steering an inexperienced floorman and talking over an inexperienced (sounded like not too great of an English speaker too) opponent is less of a transgression as it's not Daniel's fault either person was who they were. He's definitely exploiting the situation to his advantage in two spots... there's not question about that. One aspect is kind of borderline the other less so.
Makes me question my own play once. We were at the river and I hadn't called a guys bet yet, I think somebody folded and he thought the hand was over, forgetting about me and showed his mediocre hand (basically a bluff). I believe I only saw one card and like Daniel was a little unsure of the other as the dealer had acted to stop the face up muck trying to block his cards saying action was on me. I couldn't beat what I thought was only a mediocre hand as I missed, but I hadn't insta-folded as I was contemplating if I could raise him, as I thought he might fold and he seemed weak--then he kind of showed his cards.
When he tried to cover his cards, I laughed saying "I saw your hand," and fired out a raise. He mucked.. disgusted. Angle shot... or not on my part? I definitely exploited the situation, and like Daniel misrepresented what I saw, but if I shot an angle it was kind of instinctual and reactive because it just better armed me to bluff (does, that make me at heart a bad person? ugh.. if shot an angle I did it instinctively... like it's my nature lol). Course I didn't truly see his hand, but I saw enough that I thought I could follow through on my bluff and he'd have to fold.
www.gulfcoastpoker.net
Comments