Standard 1-2 game in Biloxi.

Get AA utg. Limp. Next two limp.

Tight kid after you raises to 17.

Three callers.

You are sitting with about 500 in front.

What now?

You bet 77.

Tight kid asks how much you got left. He's got about 277.

He flat calls (you are pretty sure he has a hand like Kings).

Next guy calls (pretty steady and hasn't gotten out of hand after three hours of playing).

Fold, fold.

Flop is Jd9d5h.

What now?

You check. (Bad Check?)

Tight kid puts in 100. (125 behind).

Next guy goes over the top for 283 more.

What do you do?

You ask him if he'd call a 77 bet with Jacks.

He said he has worse. You are incredulous and you say 9s?

He says, "You guys are going to be really mad if I hit my hand."

What do you do? What do they have?


Reid said…
do you have the Ad?
GeneD said…
1. "Get AA utg. Limp. Next two limp"
-We have had this conversation before...Call me tight...I donot Limp with AA/KK...There are only a few spots I heads-up in a big tourney
2. "You bet 77."
-I like this...althoguh I would have raised more like $60.00 if I would not just jam here. Theres over $50.00 in there...thats enough for me. The $60.00 would be to control the size of the pot if I was going to play this hand 3 handed or more...give me an out if I have to ditch the hand
3. "Flop is Jd9d5h.What now? You check. (Bad Check?)" I don't think so...My thoughts here are if you fire out here to see where your at...then that means that you are probably not going to fold no matter what happens. If you check..That means you need to fold if someone pushes...if you put out the feeler/blocking bet and are prepared to call if someone else jams...hell...I would go ahead and push here and take the little fold equity you might have. By checking....that tells me you are prepared to dump the hand if someone comes out big/over the top
4. Tight kid puts in 100. (125 behind).Next guy goes over the top for 283 more. What do you do?
-I fold brainer...youve only got $77.00 invested. I have one guy with 2 pair/set...the guy talking about hitting his hand has either Qd10d...or 10d8d...straight flush draw with the flush and straight re-draw. I think your behind on at least one of the hands.
I don't want to sound condesending in this but I will do my best to be completely honest. There is nothing tight about limp reraising with AA. I don't have a problem with the action preflop but I do think it's a horrible play to check the flop right there. The check in no way helps you control pot size, all it does is create a situation that forces you to make a tough decision. The limp reraise is essentially a preflop check raise. When someone check raises they are looking to make a play on the flop to take it down or if called make a decsent bet on the turn to take it down before the river. The limp reraise forces action through the reraiser. Make the play preflop and if called a healthy bet on the flop to take it down. By checking you have zero clue where you may be in the hand. It's not out the question that you're up against QQ, if i held QQ there i'd make it or call $17 preflop and if someone repopped it...i could see myself just calling there too. If that flopped gets checked to me I'd prolly make a bet also. If someone is on a draw, not a bad time to move with it. After all, the pot got big with the limp reraise and you can't really fold a draw if flop one after putting $77 in preflop in a 1/2 game. By checking you almost concede the hand with having no information other than people calling two raises and that's not enough to determine anything. Gene says you don't wanna commit yourself, well you kinda did that by your preflop action and it's not like AA is a bad hand to be committed to on that board. If you start thinking people flopped a set on you before they act then that's playing scared and also a play that would be a long term loser...AA is gonna be good there more times than not. I don't see any difference in making it $60,$77,$100 and getting called in a 1/2 game. If someone is willing to put in any of those amounts in a 1/2 game then they're willing to play a big pot. Once you check the flop any thoughts of controlling pot size are gone!...if you call the $17 and play the hand that way, then you are attempting to contol pot size. There's no reason for the people to think that maybe you just have AK and wanted to make a play (not like that's a bad move or anything). If I limp reraise with AA and that board comes out i'm not gonna be dissappointed. By betting you accomplish three things...1-assure no one will get a free card..2-actually give yourself a chance to win the hand..3-allow yourself to call a smaller bet if someone does move in on you.
I can't fault you if u fold there, I'd prolly fold also if it was a bet and raise back to me but there's no way I could check that flop and then be forced to fold w/out feeling sick about it. By using a limp reraise you "almost" always have to c-bet..hell, i'd prolly bet even if I hit a set. I'm guessing that you prolly folded and were beat and saved some money but I can't agree with playing the hand that way. I don't think you can really start overthinking things when you make a preflop play like that and that board comes out, no need to slow down. I'm not sure if you agree with this and feel free to let me know if you object to any of my thoughts.
Matt Bryant said…
I have to agree mostly with what "the honest player" said. And disagree with a lot of what Gene said. Limping with AA or KK from early position with the intention of reraising is not a bad play. Especially at a loose table. I have mixed feelings about this play because it pretty much says I have Aces or Kings. But when you're playing somewhere where people don't know exactly how you play, I think it's a better play. Did Gene really say he might ship it right here for $500?!I mean how many times do you see that? I bet $17, I call, I call, I call, I raise... $483 more?? That's playing very scared. I don't know about you but I don't catch aces often. So when I do, I want to try to make as much money possible. Yes $50 is a decent pot in a 1/2 game.. but how about winning 10x's that amount?

That being said, you absolutely have to bet the flop. I have no idea why you didn't? That's a pretty good board for AA. If they flopped a set, Merry Christmas. You can't always be afraid of that hand. You yourself called him "the tight kid." Do you think he calls $60 more in a 1/2 game with J-J? I'm curious what you would have done if you checked, the kid bet $100 and the other guy smooth calls. You really put yourself in a bind here.

The kid could very easily have K-K or Q-Q right here. And the other guy is speaking like he has some sort of draw. Of course you don't know if that's true but sounds like he might have Kd-Qs or something. Or something to that effect. I don't know if this guy was that loose or not. But in that senerio you're laying down your hand as a small favorite.

Looks like you MIGHT have saved yourself money by checking this flop. But over the long haul(which is how you're supposed to view a cash game), I think you're making the wrong play. Betting here gives you some information about your players hands.

I also want to get the ball rolling before a "cooler" card comes out to cool the action. All in all... I probably fold the river. I guess. I'm not totally afraid of a set. I'm thinking the caller has a monster draw and I may not want to flip. Now if I bet the $100 or $150 on the flop and he moves over the top. Then I don't mind flipping. But I probably just cut my $77 loss.
Reid said…
Bill - I don't mind checking the flop if your intent is to check-shove when the young kid makes his feeler bet ($100) with his QQ/KK. I think your read on him is dead right, and I think you can expect him to almost always bet this board when you check b/c of the PF action and the fact that 3 players are in the hand. It seems like a certainty that he will bet here, thus negating the potential for a disastrous free card on 4th street.

As for the dude who shoved and is saying he has a draw, well he could have JJ/99/55 for a set and he could also have some big draws: 76dd, T8dd, QTdd, KQdd. What do you think he's doing on the flop if he does have any of these hands? He's most likely shoving. Is he calling with these connectors PF b/c he reads you both for premium pairs and thinks he can stack one of you if he drills the flop? Or would he never call 2 raises with suited connectors/gappers? Also, overpairs are certainly in his range.

Regardless, I find it hard to fold once he shoves. Like HP and Matt said, if he flopped a set, congratulations. You're getting way too good of a price with the draws/overpairs in his range. After his shove you're getting like 2.3:1 and if the kid overcalls for the remainder of his stack, then you're getting almost 3:1. In either case, that means you need somewhere around 28% equity to make it a profitable call.

If his range has the draws and/or overpairs in it, then you have something like 43% equity and it is a very, very clear call.

If his shoving range here is only sets, and with some rocks this is the case, then it's obviously a fold. Do you think he is only shoving sets here?

On that flop, with the action, reads, and such, I can't find a fold.

I'm pretty terrible sometimes though, so take it for what it's worth.
Southpawrounder said…
Ok, First things first. Bill I am not overly critical of the way you played the hand. I think you know you need to bet that flop there. I can understand checking the flop a small % of the time, but only if you are gonna check raise the shit out of one or both of the players if they are both still in.

I am much more disturbed by Gene's comments to be honest.
-First, in my opinion when you decide to limp reraise from utg pot control goes right out the window. You are basically saying that I have a big hand and I am ready to play a big pot. If you are gonna "try and control the size of the pot" I would think you have to just call the $15 more and bet the flop or check call the flop. This is not what Bill was goin for on this hand. The comment about making it $60 instead of $77 to control the pot in my opinion is dumb. That little bit of difference is not gonna control the pot.
The comment about pushing for $500 b/c you have fold equity is very weak. This is another example of only being called when you are beat. I am pretty sure we have had this conversation tons of times, and I don't understand why you keep considering this all the time. I think it is time to take that shit out of your playbook. It is just a weak play.

I believe that if you start folding this hand in this spot for $300 when there is already that much in the pot that you will be wrong much more often than you will be right. I have to believe that when you limp reraise people will put you on AA/KK like matt said, but when you check the flop that will likely go right out the window. There is a decent chance the 2nd guy to act will think you are done w/ the hand and he is trying to take the pot away from the "tight player" or outdraw him.

Basically I believe you have to bet the flop and call the raise if they come over the top. Secondly if I would check this flop I believe you have to check raise the shit out of someone or call the allin from player 2 b/c he is likely thinking you don't have AA anymore.
Just my 2 cents. I do agree w/ Reid, HP, and Matt. And when I say this shit it may come off as harsh but I believe we do this shit to help each other out, and it frustrates me when people make the same play over and over and agree themself that they shouldn't do it but they never correct it.
Until next time
Southpawrounder said…
Gene, I didn't agree w/ your comments, but I also didn't want to come off as a complete ass. But pushing your whole stack or"shoving there" is one of my biggest pet peeves in poker. This is a play that you use more than anyone I know and I don't think it is a good one. You and I have discussed this a hell of a lot of times and you say you agree, but you still do it time after time. It hurts when I read that shit. In this situation, You open shove your stack and 99% of the time you will only get called when you are beat. You will almost never get paid off by a worse hand by doing that. Then you take in to account that if you check the flop and to people stick there money in or one makes a big bet you will fold thinking you are beat. This is something that in my opinion you need to change the way you think about this situation. You are basically handicapping yourself by both plays, either you shove w/ no chance of getting paid or you check and let them take the pot away from you. You need to get in the mode of not being satisfied by a $50 profit in these spots b/c they don't grow on trees!
Like I said I hope you aren't pissed it is just a situation that annoys the fuck out of me and I may be wrong. God knows I am far from an expert, but I think we need to be more than supportive of eachother. I think we also have to speak out when we think one of us is playing a hand wrong. I want ya'll to be blunt w/ me if Ya'll think I am doing something wrong also. If you see it another way, lets discuss that also.
Good luck!
C.S. said…
Thank you for ya'lls thoughts.

I checked the flop with the intention of coming over the top of the tight kid that I thought had Kings. I knew I was safe (with him) when it came Jack high. He almost shoved preflop. Any doubts he has for playing for a lot are reinforced by a check-- maybe I'm an idiot overplaying AK or AQ which is a bit of wishful thinking that might enter his mind. I think the standard play is to bet with Aces. I checked anticipating his bet and pot-sticking him so to speak.

The other guy most certainly did not have Kings or Queens imo. My feel was that he was getting in with something less. I did not expect him to beat me over the top however.

Then I ran through what he could have. Did he try and lay a "set mine" because it was obvious me and the kid had overpairs. His shove indicates he might have. Jacks seems a possibility.

Gene, Matt, Parfait, I agree checking here can induce a bet that might make me rethink my hand... and it did.

Next, he basically tipped his hand that he was on a draw. He even said he hadn't hit it yet! So, I'm in great shape and just have to sweat some cards. Flush draw obviously.

I'm about to throw in the three stacks of a hundo and I give pause. That guy hadn't gotten out of line all night. Also, he didn't seem stupid, why would he tip his hand to me.

Simple answer was he wanted me to call. And he did.

Problem was he didn't want me to call because he had me beat which was the first thought that blared into my head...

...but because he wanted a better price for his draw. He shoved not thinking it was possible I'd lay down the Aces or Kings that I obviously limp re-raised with. Most of his chips were going to be at risk so why not play for a huge pot and cajole me in as I hesistate.

So... I fold. He wanted a call too much and I had only committed 77.

Wrong play from a results perspective.

The kid had queens. The "steady" guy had 5-7 of diamonds. He wanted to nail us because he knew we were stuck with overpairs. He got a diamond draw and a pair. Fairly decent hand vs. overpairs. Any 5 or 7 (as long as the board doesn't also pair) or diamond wins it for him--if he wants to gamble and he did.

Anyway, he didn't hit his draw and the kid dragged a massive pot. My pot.

Parfait and Matt, I disagree with you on having to bet. I prefer the check here though I concede it can bring headaches as it did in this case. And I'm open to changing my preference. Kings or Queens will bet for you. They may have second thoughts if you lead out. I watched a Biloxi pro fold kings today in a cash game after the flop when the guy who obviously had Aces led out on a dry board. Granted he probably knew the player with the Aces and had history on his side but people do get away from those hands.

(BTW, no AceD--Reid, I kept hoping the heart would change into it but it didn't)

I feel like checking sometimes gives me more information than betting. They gave me all I needed... the second kid practically told me his hand, though I questioned his honesty for the wrong reason. I should have called.

Ultimately, I think I made the wrong play. Three guys at the table told me they'd fold too. Too much action. But... I think calling may be right.

Another constraint was I was up and Alex and I were leaving soon. Have to admit part of me didn't want to thow away my profit (freerolling my earlier tournament entries). I know, bad bill, bad bill.

Good news is I won that $77 back and more before leaving.
Good grief GeneD. You jam more than Skynards Freebird solo.
GeneD said…
This was good stuff...I really like everyones analysis. After talking to SPR for 30 min on the ride to Biloxi, I understand that I have some things to work on with overplaying big hands. Thats the beauty of this type of discussion. All these post helped me look at different perspectives (No offense to anyone but i felt "The Honest Players" feedback helped me better).

My thought process...and maybe I am wrong, is that if you are going to commit your chips in this type of game with AA (Tight kid has $300ish/other player has $300ish)...if you plan on putting anymore chips in the pot and basically commiting yourslef...Why not just "Get it all in" now?

I took what SPR and I talked about with me yesterday and ran into this situation.

1/2 cash game...I am in with $200.00 and get KK in lp on 3rd hand. I raise to $25.00 and get 2 callers (Obviously I donlt have any reads on anyone). Flop comes out Jd8c9h. Check to me...I fire out $65.00. both call. turn is the 6h. I fire again both call. river is 7s. it all gets in. one has 2-5o to win...the other guy had 6-7o for 2 pair on turn/river.

Now...I don't undersatnd how me not just sticking it all in pf would not be the better play here. Its all getting in anyway.

Anyhow....These poat were good stuff
Tiltin Texan said…
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tiltin Texan said…
In this spot with 200 or less in front. I can see going all in after flop. Scary board and u know draws are probably not folding for $65.If you get call for 175 from open end, I say cool.I can also see checking on occasion and see what develops on board and go with your reads. But in Bills situation with $500, shoving would be out of line in most circumstances .

Gene are u telling me some doofus called $65 on flop with 2-5 os?? To pickup gut shot? Please get his ph#. I think u should have blogged about that play. I have seen a lot but that one is historic. Right there with fag at Belinis that stayed in a $3000 pot with 22 and had third Ace hit on river to beat my flush.
Anonymous said…

On the hand you described with had $110 left on the turn in an approx. $270 pot...why didn't you make an all-in bet there on the turn?
BTW, i was at the table and remember the hand. the two guys against you are complete donks. just say 'nh', laugh, go take a walk to cool off and come back because they are gonna keep calling with gutshots to the idiot end of str8ts and that's the way we want them to play.
GeneD said…
Thanks for the comment.

If you are the cool photographer guy to my right, thanks for checking out the site.

I also want to apologize to you and anyone else at the table as I acted like an ass. I pulled a Hellmuth after this hand, and I was pretty embarresed about it the next day when I told Wild Bill about it. I know better than to act like that. I also appreciate you talking me down before it went toooo far. I did apologize to the guy that held the 6-7, but I did not get to apologize to the big guy with 2-5o. I plan on it next time I see him as he did not take lightly to me calling him an idiot. I think he said something like, "I'll stomp your ass"...and he was definatley big enough to do just that. matter who you are...welcome to the site

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